Ep. 93: Digital Detox – Schools Without Cell Phones

Smartphones have become a collective distraction in the classroom. One 2024 Pew Research survey of public-school teachers says 33% of middle school teachers and a whopping 72% of high school teachers see cell phone use in the classroom as a major problem: a disruptor to the educational process. 

Here to discuss the benefits of public school cell phone bans are Jay Bastianelli, Principal of HB du Pont Middle School in Hockessin, Delaware, part of the Red Clay Consolidated School District, and Nemours pediatric psychologist Dr. Meghan Walls. Dr. Walls provides insights on the topic from a professional and personal perspective. 

GUESTS:
Jay Bastianelli, Principal, HB du Pont Middle School. Hockessin, DE
Meghan Walls, PhD, Pediatric Psychologist and Director of External Affairs, Nemours Children's Health

Carol Vassar, producer

Views expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views of the host or management.

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Transcript

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Meghan Walls, PsyD, Director, External Affairs, Delaware Valley and pediatric psychologist, Nemours Children's Hospital, Delaware:

A phone is something that provides so much stimuli all the time. It's really hard for kids or teens to put that down and kind of regulate it themselves. So, we owe it to them. We owe it to our kids to help them along the way.

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

Leaving the house without a smartphone is nearly inconceivable to most people today, including our teens and tweens. Yet smartphones have become a collective distraction in the classroom. One 2024 Pew Research survey of public school teachers says 33% of middle school teachers and a whopping 72% of high school teachers see cellphone use in the classroom as a major problem, a disruptor to the educational process.

Concerns about how teens and tweens are developing and learning in a world where smart device use is ubiquitous have led to a trend toward limiting or even banning the use of smart devices in the classroom. According to Education Week, 11 states have statewide policies in this regard. Even the nation's second-largest school district, the Los Angeles Unified School District, plans on implementing its district-wide cellphone ban in January 2025.

This, as the state's governor, Gavin Newsom, recently urged all California schools to follow the lead of Los Angeles in restricting cellphone usage in classrooms. New York City, the nation's largest school district, is seriously considering a similar measure.

Policies vary across schools, across districts and across states, whether limiting Wi-Fi access, having students put their phones in a locked pouch for the school day, or simply having kids leave their phones in lockers, backpacks, or at home. The hoped-for result is fewer distractions, more time concentrating on learning and increased social interaction between students and between students and teachers without a screen between them.

Joining me to talk about cellphone bans in schools are Jay Bastianelli, principal of the HB du Pont Middle School in Hockessin, Delaware, part of the Red Clay Consolidated School District, along with Nemours pediatric psychologist Dr. Meghan Walls. Dr. Walls comes to the topic from a professional perspective and will fill us in on how cellphone usage affects brain development. But she also comes at it from a personal perspective as her daughter is a student at HB du Pont, where cell phones have never been allowed. Here's Jay Bastianelli.

Jay Bastianelli, Principal, HB du Pont Middle School, Red Clay Consolidated School District, Hockessin, Delaware:

Here at HB, we are in middle school, so we've grades 6th through 8th. Throughout my time here, this is going to be my ninth year as principal. It's something that I have never believed in. I've always found them as distraction for the students.

I'm also very fortunate to work in a very progressive district, where nine years ago, we were able to give Chromebooks to every student in grades 6 through 12. So, throughout my time as principal, they've always had access to a search engine for research and opportunities to use Google Documents to type. So, in terms of any school use of a cellphone, we've never had a need for it, and in my professional opinion, I just don't think they're good in the classroom, and there's different layers of that.

But I would say one of the main priorities is attention span. Students being focused on what is in front of them, and the whole idea of throughout time Albert Einstein and Marie Curie didn't need cell phones in the classroom to succeed. Abraham Lincoln taught himself by reading books and rotating around a tree. So, I'm a little old-fashioned and I just feel like there's no place for cellphones in the classroom.

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

Is there hesitancy on behalf of either the parents or the students when they get to the middle school level, and it's a time when parents do consider getting cellphones for the kids and they find out the school doesn't allow it? Is there some hesitancy? Are there any concerns on their part?

Jason Bastianelli, Principal, Henry B. duPont Middle School, Red Clay Consolidated School District, Hockessin, Delaware:

So, obviously, a majority of students aged 12, 13, 14 do have cell phones, but in my opinion, it's always about being clear and concise. So, from the beginning and even the first initial emails over the summer, it's extremely clear we have a strict cellphone policy. It has to be off, in a secure location. So, that means it needs to be off in the pocket or off in the locker. There are no warnings. The warning would be given in the beginning of the day during announcements, and then if it's on throughout the day, it is taken, and the parent has to come and get it.

So, I'm a big believer that if you create high expectations for students, families, staff, et cetera, they're going to live up to those high expectations, and we're just clear and consistent throughout the process about that. If they need to contact the parent, we have landlines in every classroom, and we will also say to them, "Hey, if we need to look up your family's number or your parent's number, we'll do that for you. But you need to use our landline, not your cellphone."

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

Have you had any concerns from parents about emergency situations? Obviously, you did say that landlines are available. Has that come up with parents in particular, "My kid can't reach me," or, "What if something happens in my classroom that's untoward?" Is that a concern you hear about?

Jason Bastianelli, Principal, Henry B. duPont Middle School, Red Clay Consolidated School District, Hockessin, Delaware:

Great question, and I can give you two very specific examples on how we handled those. I guess it was two years ago, the electricity went out in the entire school, and we had to send the students home. And then last year, we had a minor fire in a seventh-grade bathroom, where we had to keep them outside for about an hour until the fire marshal cleared everyone to come back in. In those moments, and obviously anything bigger than that or the worst thing possible, the biggest thing for us is lack of distractions.

And if we have families calling us when we need complete focus, it's a distraction. For me personally, as the leader of the building, I need to have the team surrounding me, so we can delegate and divide our plan, which we've rehearsed time after time. And then the last thing we need is parents necessarily calling at that moment because it's just going to serve as a distraction for us when we're not going to necessarily have time to even communicate.

From there, obviously, we follow the appropriate protocols for the day that we had to send them home because the power was out, the district was able to send out a text message to all of our families and the entire school saying, "This is going to be dismissal. This is what time they should be arriving home on the buses, et cetera." So then the families are then aware of what happens. But they're hearing directly from the adult because when they hear directly from the child, there's different ways that can get misconstrued and confusing.

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

I want to get your reaction to this, Dr. Walls, when you knew your kids were going to be moving into the middle school and finding that cellphones had no place in the culture. What's been your reaction to that, first and foremost?

Meghan Walls, PsyD, Director, External Affairs, Delaware Valley and pediatric psychologist, Nemours Children's Hospital, Delaware:

Sure. I think you're right. I'm nodding my head to most of this. I think there's a lot of nuance to this, but Principal Bastianelli said this, and I think the biggest piece that's important, as a psychologist, as a school leader is really giving our kids expectations. So, my daughter's going into seventh grade, but she knew before she went into that building there are no phones allowed in the school.

And it's interesting, I think, as you said, some kids kind of don't love this, but I think the reality is most of Principal Bastianelli's students also end up liking this policy because they know what to expect and because it is sometimes easier for them. But I like to think of these policies not as cellphone bans because I think that's an easy way to say it. But I think instead, the way I talk about it to parents is regulating stimulus for kids.

We are just regulating what's happening because I think parents and kids get nervous at this notion of bans, but when I talk to them about the thousand other ways we're trying to regulate kids and help them during this, really, I think, impactful time in brain development, they seem to have an easier time wrapping their heads around it that way.

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

Let me ask from your professional point of view now, and I think Principal Bastianelli alluded to this, is that adults help guide the communication in emergency situations. Let me ask you, why do teens and tweens need adults to help guide them on issues such as this?

Meghan Walls, PsyD, Director, External Affairs, Delaware Valley and pediatric psychologist, Nemours Children's Hospital, Delaware:

Well, I mean, I think Principal Bastianelli deals with a school full of these tweens and teens every day. The simple answer here is our job as adults, I see it as scaffolding tweens and teens. So, we are not doing the things for them, but we're helping them.

But in order to do that, we need to sort of help with that independence. And one of the first questions you asked was, "How do parents feel?" Admittedly, as a tween mom, this one's hard for me, right? We can't solve our kids' problems. We shouldn't be answering that text all day long to solve their problems. They've got to figure these things out.

But taking a step back, I think there's two really important things. One is that brain development at this stage is one of the pinnacle times in life. Some tweens and teens do not have the same brain development as adults. They have a less developed frontal lobe. That's where all we make our good decisions, a lot more activity in what's called the amygdala area of the brain, and that's the part of the brain that reacts to immediate outcomes.

So, when we're thinking about how tweens and teens react, the thing that I tell people is it is unfair to expect tweens and teens to fully regulate their own behavior because their brains are doing this really cool, adapted thing, which is figuring out how to survive, "What are the cool things I can do? What are the things I can't do?" And the number one thing that drives them is sort of this stimuli or pleasure-seeking experience.

You think about kids who drive a car faster than us, experiment with drugs maybe, but a phone is, I call it, this, unfettered stimuli. It's lighting up, it's social, it's reaction, it's all these different things. And so, how do we expect tweens and teens to regulate that on their own? It's really important that, as adults, we are stepping in and saying, "Let us help you. We can't tell you how to learn these things." But a phone is something that provides so much stimuli all the time. It's really hard for kids or teens to put that down and kind of regulate it themselves. So, we owe it to them. We owe it to our kids to help them along the way.

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

There is such a thing as being addicted to the cellphone, isn't there?

Meghan Walls, PsyD, Director, External Affairs, Delaware Valley and pediatric psychologist, Nemours Children's Hospital, Delaware:

Yeah, and we see this kind of dependency on screens, and we talk to parents a lot in the clinical world about if your kid can't put it down if you are seeing a kid who doesn't want to come eat dinner with you, what are the things to sort of look at, the same as we would look at anything else? But I also think, if you think about as an adult, and Principal Bastianelli has actually said this thing about, it's distracting to them, right?

The research on this, banning phones in schools, is not great yet. So, I want to put that out there, right? From a scientific perspective, we're doing a lot of theorizing a lot of anecdotal looking, but there are some pieces. And one of those pieces is this concept of distraction. Because if you think about this, I can say this, right? You're a parent or a teacher, and your phone buzzes, and you look at that phone, and it's a text. Maybe it's from your partner or your kid, and it says something irritating to you, and now you're having to switch your brain back to what you're doing.

For teens who have less ability to regulate, they get a text from a friend, they see a social media post, how are they supposed to switch back to pre-algebra? It's nearly impossible. And so I think we are almost helping them by taking that pressure off of them. And again, I think we need more formal research in this area because I think it would help guide policy, but when we think about brains, it's not super hard to make these connections to how not having that screen in front of us all the time can help not be distracted during the school day.

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

It sounds like, anecdotally, at least, we know that this impacts focus. Principal Bastianelli, how do you think the cellphone or lack thereof in the classroom affects academic performance?

Jason Bastianelli, Principal, Henry B. duPont Middle School, Red Clay Consolidated School District, Hockessin, Delaware:

So, first I want to say I completely agree with everything Dr. Walls said. Obviously, she spoke so eloquently about the brain development, but that's a huge part of this age group or any teenager. But no, our academic performance has been outstanding this past year, specifically, in terms of our math and English language arts scores, we almost did as well as two of our very well-known what's called magnet schools in Red Clay, which means they're 100% choice. HB du Pont is a comprehensive school, so we are a traditional public school, so our test scores were through the roof.

And then, if you also look at the data in terms of the high schools our students are getting into, it's the ones that they're truly passionate about and the ones that they've set their goals to. So, in terms of academic achievement, it's been outstanding. And then also, let's say it's middle school, right? It's the nature of the beast. Drama. It cuts down on drama tremendously because, in the words of the great Taylor Swift, "Say it to me in person, don't say it to me through a tweet."

And teaching students the skills to even disagree in person and verbally than through a text message or through a Snap it's critical for their life development. And I think that's something I'm also really proud of, and our team's really proud of, because if you don't have the opportunity to say X, Y, Z through the cellphone, hey, guess what? You might not be willing to say it to the person, to them directly, you shouldn't say it at all. And I think those are critical skills that this generation desperately needs, that if they're allowed to use the phones in school, we're doing them a huge disservice.

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

Let's turn to the teachers. Do teachers want to come to your school, maybe be part of your school because there is a cellphone ban? I would think that, obviously, it's a distraction in the classroom. And if it has never been in the classroom in your school, I would think teachers would be knocking down the doors to try and get in. What's the teacher reaction in the building and within the district?

Jason Bastianelli, Principal, Henry B. duPont Middle School, Red Clay Consolidated School District, Hockessin, Delaware:

Personally, in our building, I think the teachers love it just because, once again, you're not competing for their attention. If anything, in our society today, we need to build up higher attention span in our teens, not less. So, for the most part, they love it. We are very fortunate to have a great culture here at HB. We have absolutely outstanding teachers and staff, and that leads to more people wanting to be part of our team.

And then I think the other schools actually trending towards moving to what we're doing, specifically the other middle schools in the Red Clay Consolidated School District, are adapting our model for next year. It's a work in progress, but high school is also... it's more challenging in terms of getting the 15, 16-year-old to listen and say, "Hey, I don't need this for eight hours. I'm going to focus on my academics. I'm going to focus on my goals and what I want to accomplish in the classroom." Where I think middle school is a little simpler just because they are a little younger and they're more likely to adapt to what we are asking them to do.

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

What are you hearing from your peers, who perhaps are not as far along in this process? What are your peers saying?

Jason Bastianelli, Principal, Henry B. duPont Middle School, Red Clay Consolidated School District, Hockessin, Delaware:

I would say the main aspect is I just hear more stories about disruptions. I hear more stories about the problems that they cause in terms of Johnny's saying this to Sarah through Instagram, and then what that then cultivates and the problems that they then have dealing with that. That would be the biggest thing I've heard. I'm very fortunate a few of the educators that have worked here that I've mentored are now principals at different schools.

One of my good friends is a principal at Stanton Middle School, and we've had that conversation multiple times in terms of, "Hey, it's tough, but if you go day one and you implement it and you follow through, your life is going to get easier, and you're going to have the opportunity not only to help the students, the most important part, but you're also going to have opportunities to maximize your time throughout the school day in different areas that are more important than dealing with cellphone nonsense."

I do practice what I preach, too. I want you to know that. My daughter is a year younger than Sienna. She's going to be in sixth grade, and she's got an iPad this summer, finally. I'm the most cringey dad on the Earth for waiting so long, but she's not getting a cellphone until eighth grade. She's allowed on the iPad one hour a day for texting and FaceTime. That is it. And then my wife and I are big believers, there's... it's called Wait Until 8th. It's a big group on, I think, Facebook and it has a lot of positives and stories on the benefits of it all. So, she will not get a cellphone until eighth grade, and she will absolutely not have social media, just because I don't think it's good for her.

Meghan Walls, PsyD, Director, External Affairs, Delaware Valley and pediatric psychologist, Nemours Children's Hospital, Delaware:

He won't answer your text during the day either because he tries not to take his own phone out. So, he's like, "Meghan, email me." So, I emailed him about this, but I think that's important, right? The teachers are not texting on their phones all day.

Jason Bastianelli, Principal, Henry B. duPont Middle School, Red Clay Consolidated School District, Hockessin, Delaware:

They're not allowed to use them either, unless they're promoting the school.

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

As we look at the national trend, some really big names are coming forward and saying, "This is a good thing." We look at California, we look at New York. You're an early adopter or a non-adopter, really, of having cell phones in schools. What do you think of the trend nationally? Do you think this is just a passing trend, or are you looking at this as something that is going to sweep the nation and hopefully benefit our children at the middle school and perhaps early high school level?

Jason Bastianelli, Principal, Henry B. duPont Middle School, Red Clay Consolidated School District, Hockessin, Delaware:

Yes, I think it's outstanding. I just think the biggest item is you have to stick to your guns. And what I mean by that is communicating clearly during the summer to all your families, all your students, and that could be through an email, but also technology, through a text message, so everyone sees that.

From there, the first day of school, the second day of school, the third day of school, the fourth day of school, you have to be consistent. It can't be one day, "Hey, we're saying this, and we're not following through." Or, "Mr. May is in room 107 is following this, but Mrs. Morsberger in room 109 is not." It's got to be clear across the board. But if you have that consistency, you can achieve the goals.

Because at the end of the day, these students are incredible pieces of clay, right? What they can achieve is unimaginable, but you have to be clear. You have to be consistent. And they're so adaptable. They're willing to listen. And for the ones that are spending 10 to 12 hours on it during the summer, it's so good for them to get away from it and have the opportunity to enjoy their time with peers, have those relationships, have conversations.

At lunch, here at HB, we don't even let them use their Chromebooks. All Chromebooks have to be closed because we want them to talk to each other. Because at the end of the day, to have a job like Dr. Walls has one day, you're not going to be able to get where you want in society and life if you can't have those conversations.

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

Dr. Walls, what do you think of the national trend here?

Meghan Walls, PsyD, Director, External Affairs, Delaware Valley and pediatric psychologist, Nemours Children's Hospital, Delaware:

So, I think it's really interesting, and I think one of the things that I really hope is that we have more hard research coming out about this. It's a lot easier to adapt policies, both at the school level but at the state level, when we have research that backs it. I think we can talk a lot about anecdotal evidence. There is some emerging evidence that it does things like help reduce bullying. There's a couple research studies that point at things like it actually improves the ability to interact socially or increase collaboration.

One thing that I think is really interesting and important as we think about national trends and how this grows is that while the policy might have to be black and white, it's not one size fits all. And what I mean by that is the kids who actually benefit the most, when we look at research from these cellphone bands, are kids who are not excelling. So, kids who are lower performing.

And I think that makes sense to me, even from a brain regulation standpoint. Kids who are straight-A students have some of that probably predisposed in them genetically more focused, more attention, those types of things. And so we're actually doing the thing that I think is really important in education is, this is one more way to level the playing field. And that's incredibly important in education. We can't educate kids without equity.

It's nearly impossible for us to create full equity. But I do think these emerging studies are pointing to the fact that this is another way to level that playing field. And I just think that's so important. But the other thing I think is important is learning how to talk to parents and teachers, and students about why. So, not just the research but also this is tough. We live in a world, and Carol, you asked this question and I'll step out there one step further, where parents are afraid of what's going to happen at school. And as much as I hate to say this one, I will tell you the number one concern I hear from parents about cell phone bans are school shootings.

And here's the thing: the school that Principal Bastianelli runs, my kid could turn on her phone in an emergency. No one's going to look at my kid and say, "No, no, no, Sienna. Don't call your mom if something terrible is happening." And I think that's the key here. You have to make parents comfortable with it, talk to them about your policies, but also talk to them about the fact that these kids, and I believe this at Sienna school, these kids are cared for by thoughtful adults who want the best for your kids.

We have to create an environment, and we can't do this in every school right away, but schools have to work in an environment where parents trust the adults in the school, and the adults trust the parents with their kids. And when you do that, these policies aren't so bad. I think if you told most kids who have a phone in school now, "We're taking it away," they'd be really upset.

My favorite thing at HB is when I pick up Sienna at the end of the day, and I drive up around the curb, and she's standing in a circle with these three or four friends, who are wonderful, and not one of them has turned their phone back on yet. They could. They're allowed to once they're out the door. I can call her because I can't find her to pick her up, and she does not answer because her phone is off and she's chatting with her friends. That is a gift. 13-year-old girls chatting with no screens is an actual gift.

And so I hope that as we talk about this, it becomes more important to put money into the research. More important to think about what does this mean for us academically in a country where we're trying to excel academically? But what does this mean for us in a country where we're seeing kids who have more mental health issues, more struggles with anxiety? And can we turn just a little bit? Can this be one tiny variable?

And that's all I want for kids, and all I want for schools is to find the things that make this a place where my kid can excel, a place where your kid can excel, and a place where we're creating some equity, even if it's not perfect, but along the way, we're finding small pieces that make it better. And when my kid gets in my car and is talking to me instead of staring at her cellphone, that's also a gift.

And so we're not just doing this in schools. We are showing kids, "Hey, look, it's really great to interact with people one-on-one, and you can do it. You're capable of this social interaction. You're capable of that collaboration without that screen in front of your face."

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

That's amazing stuff, and it sounds like a future state that we all want for our kids. Any thoughts that you'd like to share, perhaps with policymakers or other educators who are listening today, about this trend toward not necessarily the ban but the non-use of cellphones in the classroom?

Jason Bastianelli, Principal, Henry B. duPont Middle School, Red Clay Consolidated School District, Hockessin, Delaware:

I think time is one of the most precious things we have in this world. And time in the classroom or time in the hallways, time in the cafeteria, and in my opinion, banning the cell phones, just not letting them use them throughout the instructional day, you are going to maximize time. You're going to maximize time for peer relationships. You're going to maximize time for games and English language arts and math and science and social studies. And that is one of the biggest things we need. And in my opinion, the lack of, you're not trying to compete against TikTok in the classroom because their attention span, that's what they like to see. And if that is not an issue, they're much more likely to dive deep into a book.

And at the end of the day, books are how we have gotten to where we are as a world and as a country. And there's nothing more important to a kid, and that's a newborn to a 17-year-old, than a book. So, I would say time, and you're going to really maximize your time of what's most important for your students.

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

Dr. Walls, final word.

Meghan Walls, PsyD, Director, External Affairs, Delaware Valley and pediatric psychologist, Nemours Children's Hospital, Delaware:

I think that the way we need to think about this is one thing. It's one thing we could do that maybe helps our kids a little bit. And as psychologists, when we talk to parents, we actually talk about a couple of things with phones, but I also am a realist, and I know that not everyone can do all of these things. I know families are different. We talk about delaying phones. So, I would love if ten-year-olds didn't have phones, but I can't stop every family from giving their kid a phone. In fact, some kids need that.

I would love it if Jay's students didn't have TikTok at all, right? I am for the record, the worst mom in middle school because my child's not allowed to have social media. But I stand by that, and I'll stand by that strongly because it is such a suck, and it's such a way that kids get wrapped in some of the social stuff.

And no phones in schools is just like that. It's one thing. But the nice thing about it is there is one principal in a school, there is one set of teachers in a school, and if they can all be on the same page, then all of those students have the same expectations. And I think there's something really beautiful about a group of teens or tweens all having that same expectation.

We know screens are here to stay. We know phones are here to stay. I don't think any of us are naive enough to think that there's not some positive pieces to them. And we know that technology in school is here to stay. We are lucky to have Chromebooks in our district, and that really does help. That helps offset that sort of, "Do we need this?" But screen-free and phone-free time for kids, and I said this before, and I'll say it again, is a gift for our kids.

And the more that we can do that and the more we can give them the moments of creativity... So, not every kid will pick up that book, but will a kid listen to a book on audio? Will a kid work with their partner in the classroom to draw a picture or to create a project together? And it really gives them the freedom to have that creativity.

So, I think this is not the answer to everything. This does not solve everything. But I think it's one tool we have. And what I would say is I encourage schools to think about how it could work for your culture in your environment. It doesn't have to be the same everywhere. It doesn't have to be the pouch or in your backpack or even no phones at all. But I do think that the more parents and teachers, and educators can work together to get to this place, I really do think it's something that benefits our kids in terms of using their brains in different ways during that eight hours of the day.

Because once they go home, there's a whole lot of other hours in the day, and they probably are going to look at TikTok. But if we can just have this small amount of time in their day, I really do think that it's a nice way for kids to all sort of have that level playing field of, "Let's all work together. Let's all learn these social skills." And let's be really thoughtful and help these kids when we know they're at a time when they can't regulate these things themselves.

Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

Pediatric psychologist Dr. Meghan Walls is director of External Affairs for Nemours Children's Health, Delaware. We thank her for joining us today, as well as Jay Bastianelli, principal of the HB du Pont Middle School in Hockessin, Delaware.

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Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:

From smartphone technology to AI, we are on top of the latest technology and how it affects children's health. Is there a topic you'd like to hear more about? Leave us a voicemail on our podcast website, NemoursWellBeyond.org. It's there where you may subscribe to the podcast and also leave a review. Our production team this week includes Cheryl Munn, Susan Masucci, and Lauren Teta. I'm Carol Vassar. Until next time. Remember, we can change children's health for good, Well Beyond Medicine.

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