Well Beyond Medicine: The Nemours Children's Health Podcast
Exploring people, programs and partnerships addressing whole child health.
Well Beyond Medicine: The Nemours Children's Health Podcast
Ep. 178: The Cost of Loneliness with Lucy Rose
Loneliness is more than a feeling — it’s a growing public health issue with real physical and emotional consequences. Lucy Rose, Founder and President of The Cost of Loneliness Project, joins us in a timely conversation about chronic loneliness, connection and health.
We explore why children and young adults report some of the highest rates of loneliness, how loneliness can become intergenerational, and the critical differences between digital communication and real human connection. Lucy also examines the role — and limits — of AI and technology, and shares what parents, clinicians, schools and communities can do to help build a culture of connection.
Featuring: Lucy Rose, Founder & President, The Cost of Loneliness Project
Host/Producer: Carol Vassar
Learn more about The Cost of Loneliness Project
Views expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views of the host or management.
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Announcer (00:00):
Welcome to Well Beyond Medicine, the world's top-ranked children's health podcast, produced by Nemours Children's Health. Subscribe on any platform at nemourswellbeyond.org or find us on YouTube.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (00:12):
Each week we'll be joined by innovators and experts from around the world, exploring anything and everything related to the 85% of child health impact that occur outside the doctor's office. I'm your host, Carol Vassar. And now that you're here, let's go.
MUSIC (00:30):
Let's go.
(00:33):
Well Beyond Medicine.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (00:36):
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Nemours Well Beyond Medicine podcast. We're in Las Vegas at Health, and I am so pleased to have with me the dynamic Lucy Rose. She is founder and president of the Cost of Loneliness Project. Welcome, Lucy.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (00:49):
I am indeed. Thank you for having me. Carol, some pleasure.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (00:52):
Let's talk about loneliness. How do you define loneliness in general, and especially in today's world?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (01:00):
What a great question. Let me just clarify first. When I talk about loneliness, I'm talking about chronic loneliness-
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (01:07):
Okay.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (01:07):
... not the loneliness of someone may feel when they're at a dance and they've worn the same dress somebody else has.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (01:11):
Okay.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (01:12):
They kind of stand in the corner. You know what I mean?
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (01:13):
Yes.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (01:14):
I feel lonely at the party.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (01:15):
I've been there, done that.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (01:15):
We've all done that. I'm quite sure. But this one, we talk about loneliness in the way I talk about it. I'm concerned about chronic loneliness, which is the negative emotion that someone may feel over time when they're not being fulfilled with the emotional needs that they have. They don't feel seen. They don't feel like they belong, and it aches inside.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (01:36):
You've talked about this as an invisible public health issue.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (01:39):
Yes.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (01:39):
And I think one of the former Surgeon Generals has identified it as a public health issue. Talk about why it's not visible.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (01:48):
Okay. And yes, Dr. Murthy really did.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (01:49):
He did.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (01:49):
And I really am grateful for him doing that. It's not visible because of the way I think this country was founded, in all honesty, and the societal constructs that we've put together over time. As you think about it, just think of what you heard as a child. You're okay. You don't need any help. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps. All is fine with you. And society has made us in kind of rugged individualism thinking we don't need others. The fact is we do need others. There is a stigma attached to saying I'm lonely. It's like you're weak. You're not strong enough. What's the matter with you? So to me, the importance here is it has been silent. We are now hearing more about it. But when are we going to do something about it and how do we get to the people that need it most? And there are lots of them.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (02:34):
Why is now the time to address it?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (02:38):
I think there are a lot of reasons now is the time, but we are in a paradox situation right now where we're probably the most connected we've ever been in terms of technology. There's no probably, we are in the history of the world. The most connected we've ever been in terms of technology, being able to find a friend you haven't seen in years, all of those things. And yet at the same time, that technology and other things are driving us towards not being connected. Folks are not joining clubs as much as they used to. They've turned away from churches to some degree. We had, if everyone remembers, a large epidemic recently where we can't get outside.
(03:14):
And one of the results of that, and maybe one of the longest-lasting negative results, is the fact that we often no longer gather in community at work either. And that's a good thing for some-
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (03:24):
True.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (03:25):
... and for others, you lose that place of belonging, talking with folks at the water cooler and all of that stuff. So it's a paradox time, I think, right now.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (03:35):
What's at stake if we don't address chronic loneliness?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (03:40):
There's so much at stake. And that's exactly why my project is called the Cost of Loneliness, because there are costs to the individual, clearly, and those costs are physical and emotional. And in fact, the cost of the individual could be earlier onset of dementia. As a matter of fact, if the folks don't think about. One of the things that chronic loneliness causes is an increase in inflammation because of that constant cortisol release, kind of that fright and flight that we do when we get stressed and nervous and all of that. And that chronic exuding, basically, of cortisol causes chronic inflammation, which causes things like increased heart disease, increased GI issues.
(04:19):
And then the soothing behaviors that we may do to help ourselves feel better when we're lonely, that could include everything from overshopping to overeating perhaps as a soothing behavior, to alcoholism, to all of those only in many ways kind of tend to reinforce the vicious cycle that we already feel. And they're costly as well to all of us. So there cost to the individual, there's cost to society because we have to pay for all of those things as well. Through all of that, productivity goes down, retention is hard for corporations. Now is the time. And frankly, I believe if we don't do something now, because humans are wired for connection. I think all of us know.
(05:02):
We feel it in our souls, don't we? We're wired for connection. If we don't now seize this moment and learn what meaningful, authentic connections mean, it'll be a major issue for this country and the world.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (05:15):
You talked about the paradox, and I think that paradox laid out is we're very digitally connected. We talk to each other on social media, we talk to each other through apps like WhatsApp, and that kind of thing, and yet people still feel isolated. What's the difference between communication, which we do through social media, which we do through WhatsApp and Discord and that kind of thing, and connection in terms of defining ... It seems to be a defining feature of what we do today.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (05:46):
It is a defining feature because communication... Yeah, you and I are communicating right now as we look at each other. We communicated yesterday via text and email and things like that to get together so that we've found a time. Real, authentic connection, though, has to do with all five of our senses. It's us looking at each other, seeing our micro expressions, having mutual vulnerability with one another. It's being seen and heard in a way that is meaningful for the person that wants to be seen and heard, which frankly is all of us. But that connection involves all of our senses, smell, sight, taste, all of that. And again, how we communicate effectively and therefore go to connection is dependent on being together. Touch is one of the most important. We can't hug each other as hard as we might want to through the virtual ways that we have. We have to be there to do that. And that matters.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (06:42):
Absolutely. Let's talk about the most common group that is reporting this chronic loneliness. Most people, I think, would think it's the elderly, but it isn't, is it?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (06:51):
It's not.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (06:52):
Who is it?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (06:53):
Almost everybody thinks that. It's the group from 18 to 34. And I'll also say, I want to take it down even lower if we look at young children, so it's in elementary school. And the studies vary, all of them always will, I think, depending on what you do, but somewhere between 15 and 20% of young children, our elementary age children, report feeling chronically lonely in school, at home, wherever they may be. That to me, between that and 18 to 34, bids for a very challenging future if we don't do something today because those predictors early on last throughout lifetime, three times more potential for being depressed in later life if you're depressed as a child. I mean, if you're lonely as a child, as an example.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (07:42):
I'm curious: that older end of the 18 to 34, some of them are the parents of the children that you just referenced.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (07:50):
Yeah, they are.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer r (07:50):
How do we help the parents in that older 33, 34, 35 who have the younger children overcome this kind of loneliness if they themselves are affected by it?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (08:02):
Wow. It is intergenerational, isn't it?
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (08:04):
It is.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (08:05):
Starting all the way down and passing through often, because if a parent is lonely and hasn't figured out a way to soothe themselves and feel their own need for connection, then it's very difficult for them, I think, to model that behavior for children. And that modeling behavior is critical for their children, setting things like rituals in the home that makes kids feel safe and comfortable and seen. It's difficult to do, making yourself vulnerable if you yourself are lonely. So I think the first situation we all have to have is recognition. We have to look at ourselves and say, "Am I lonely? And if so, what might I do about my own loneliness? What do I need to fill that? Is it that I need to go out with friends more often? Do I not have a best friend? And how might I cultivate that?"
(08:53):
But you can start small in terms of starting to fill your bank, so to speak, with feeling good. You can start with noticing micro expressions, saying hi to people on the streets. I know that sounds oversimplified. I know it does, but so many of these things add up to folks feeling better. Maybe one would love to have a pet and that would make them feel better. Whatever it is, but you're right, the parent needs to know that, see it in themselves. And one other last thing thought here, one can anticipate often that loneliness may happen as a result of something. When we lose an important person to us through death, we have rituals for that. We have funerals, we have celebrations of life. We take food if you're from the south like I am, [inaudible 00:09:38]. You know? You take care of things like that.
(09:42):
What we don't necessarily have is rituals for all the other things that cause grief and loneliness. For example, moving from one place to another when you were really happy where you were, and now you have no new friends. Losing a job where you were really happy in your job and that job no longer exists. Those folks are set up for loneliness because of the grief they're going to experience. We can see that. We can probably know that and understand it. So what can we do to anticipate and help prevent that as well?
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (10:14):
What can we do? If we know someone is experiencing this kind of chronic loneliness, be they a child or somebody in that 18 to 34 age range, maybe they're the parent of one of these 18 to 24 year olds, the young adult aged folks. What can they do?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (10:30):
First thing again is to recognize that that's going on with them. And you can anticipate it, perhaps, based on what we just said. Or you may not, because maybe that didn't happen. But if you do anticipate it, I think the important thing is to talk about it. Make it a normal conversation to say, "Have you made any new friends in your new place? Are you feeling connected? Have you found a way to feel like you're embedding in the new community and that you belong?" What does it feel like? So that we talk about it, we put words around this, we understand that loneliness can cause that connection is vital. I want to really focus on connection because I think that's the antidote, and it's free. It's for us to connect. But talking about it, anticipating and asking them how they're feeling, being there for them, checking in, doing routine check-ins may help prevent that. Giving them resources that will guide them to another source that perhaps making sure they join a new club if they're runners. Maybe they join the new local runners club. Whatever it may be that fills them, helping them connect in that way in their new environment may also help prevent some of this loneliness. But I want to go to children just for a second-
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (11:39):
Sure.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (11:39):
Because I know that's where you are as well.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (11:41):
Yes.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project t (11:41):
As we think about children, how can we notice that children might be lonely as parents? What does that look like? And I think what we look for is any changes in behavior and in what they're doing. A child who has been really academically strong, that suddenly is not doing nearly as well academically as they were before.
(12:00):
A child who has suddenly become clingy, "Mom, mom, I don't want to let go." Or the exact opposite doesn't want you to touch them anymore. And they sit in their room all day. A child who was not scrolling all the time, they're suddenly just kind of scrolling mindlessly, or who was an athlete, and now they don't want to play anymore, or play the piano, and now they don't want to practice anymore. Those kinds of things could kind of cue us in that something's changed with our child, and at that point, we need to start asking questions, provide interventions, and help make sure that they know we see them and that we care about them and that they belong.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (12:38):
As we sit here at a technology conference, AI is the word of the day, the word-
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (12:44):
Isn't it?
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (12:45):
... the conference, the word of the decades seemingly.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (12:47):
Yes.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (12:48):
We have seen many people turn to chatbots, AI-enhanced friends. What's the advantage of that? What's the disadvantage of that in terms of alleviating chronic loneliness and other issues?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (13:06):
And they are both. You're right. So I don't want to sound like I'm dishing on AI or any other technology, okay? Because I think the possibilities for AI and for all technology, whether it's AI-generated or not, is quite positive. There are ways that AI, particularly, can help us connect better. We could talk with AI and say, "Here's how I'm feeling. What examples might you have, or what do you bring to me that you can help?" Bots can be helpful and that again, they can be supportive. They're not going to mitigate loneliness necessarily, though I think there are folks who would love that to happen, but they can be supportive in terms of helping us again, perhaps with reminders, perhaps helping us understand where to go and our needs and feelings better, et cetera. And for children, they expose them, or the internet itself. We don't even need AI if we can just go to the internet or through their scolding things, expose them to opportunities for learning and for seeing other people who are uncomfortable and how they deal with it.
(14:07):
On the other hand, AI, the internet, none of that can ever substitute for the need for human care and for being mutually vulnerable with each other and for looking directly into someone's eyes and for giving those hugs that we all need. So it's vitally important that these are both ands, not either or necessarily, because they do think AI can supplement the other in some ways, but we can't walk away ever from human connection. It's too basically primal and necessary for us as humans to provide that. So
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (14:44):
It's a tool of the toolkit.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (14:45):
It's a tool in the toolkit.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (14:45):
It's the-
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project t (14:48):
It's not the cure-all.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (14:48):
... be-all, end-all?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (14:48):
It's not the answer to this. The answer is for all of us to work together to create systems, to create cultures of connection that really make all of us as individuals feel seen and that we belong in the way we want to feel seen and belong, so that we feel it in our hearts in here.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (15:08):
Empathy is a large part of that. Can empathy be trained into these AIs or can that only really come from human beings?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (15:20):
AI can help, I think, provide the initial kind of feeling of some more superficial empathy. And there are ways folks are working to build some of that in. But because the real definition of empathy is mutual vulnerability, so that, again, you and I are looking at each other talking and sharing, and I can see the sparkling your eye as we talk. That's so meaningful to me. And training AI to do that, to see my micro expressions, to know that right now is that moment for the hug, and be able to give it to me. We can't ever get there with AI. It just won't be there. So I think the five senses we talked about earlier is so critical in that mutual vulnerability that we all need. So AI can come up to a certain closeness to the line, but to cross the line and really provide the empathy that we all need is still going to take humans to do that. Our kids need us.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (16:18):
They sure do. Let me ask this.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (16:19):
yeah.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (16:20):
When kids are going across the internet, discovering ChatGPT, maybe chatting with a bot of some kind that's AI-enhanced, are they able to tell the difference between what's a real connection and what's a virtual AI-generated connection?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (16:38):
I will have to say, I don't know that any of us can anymore, hardly.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (16:42):
Really?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (16:43):
If you look at what's possible now, I mean, you've seen it. You've seen celebrities there that say, "I didn't say that, that wasn't me." So I think it is hard for all of us. It's particularly hard with young children whose brains are still developing. They can see a mask of a clown and think it's a real person.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (16:59):
Right. That's true.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (17:00):
So as you think about this, as we've got developing brains, it is up to us as adult guiders, be it parents or teachers or whomever it is to help them understand this is not real, this is not your real friend that you can reach out to and touch. There's danger there if we don't too, because obviously they can get sucked into things that are very challenging and very negative very quickly. So I think it's up to us to help them learn what to look for, to help guide them through a process of being able to delineate this from that, but it gets harder and harder, I think, as we move forward, for us to do that as well. If it's a bot, you can tell them this bot's not real. Anything you see here is not real. Yeah.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (17:45):
Do you worry that there should be some sort of ethical guidance in the creation of these kinds of bots that say, "Okay, you understand now that I am not real." Is that happening? Do you know if that's brought to bear?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (18:01):
I don't know, but I'm really concerned it's already too little too late with that from a regulatory standpoint because-
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (18:07):
Talk about that.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (18:08):
... we developed AI and robots, bots themselves, I mean, real robots that are going to go into assisted living communities instead of nurses. And what does that do with our elderly as well? But as we've done this, I went to a TED, the big mother TED I call it, in Vancouver about seven or eight years ago, and it was all about robotics back then. And they were asking that same question you just asked me back then.
(18:33):
Is there enough regulation around this and consistency and expectations and care from an ethical standpoint? And the answer even seven years ago was we have gone so fast we haven't been able to keep up in terms of thinking about the impacts this is going to have, and how we create regulatory consistency. So no, I don't think we're doing a good job of that. And you can see that here when you walk around, and you hear all of the different things being developed, you don't hear anybody necessarily talk about regulations or consistency. Some are at least talking about ethics. So I think clearly if I were developing one today or if I were thinking about regulatory importance, I would certainly be thinking about that disclosure that people are told right up front that whatever it is they're doing, if it's not real, that it's not real.
(19:23):
But I think, particularly as we think about children, that's not enough because we need to make sure that we've built in all the privacy issues, and we need to do that for everybody. But with children even more, I think layers of perhaps of requiring parents to go in with them, depending on what it is they're looking at or certain standards that say going past here is a tipping point where parents have to sign in with them or whatever that needs to be. But certainly patient privacy is critical or not patient, but consumer privacy is critical as well. Where does it go? What's done with it so that all of us understand?
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (19:59):
Let's take this back into the human realm.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (20:01):
Please, I'd like that.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (20:02):
Take it out of the AI realm.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (20:03):
Thank you.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (20:04):
What are some of the maybe structural or environmental barriers that kind of make loneliness worse, particularly for kids? How does that compound for them in particular?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (20:15):
Yeah, I'm really concerned about that. And thank you for asking, because there are a lot of barriers today that were not barriers when I was a child. Things like how safe are our playgrounds, and how are people going out and enjoying being outside together in community, like perhaps we used to do. And that's one reason the term connection recession kind of relates to me, as I think about that, because some of the things that we used to take for granted are no longer there in terms of structures around us. I think again that there are not as many after-school programs as there used to be. That more and more kids are not necessarily playing sports, but are doing other things, up to and including coming home and scrolling all afternoon.
(21:02):
And homes where both people work, which is a necessity and a desire by lots of us. I worked the whole time. My kids were young.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (21:11):
Me too.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (21:11):
I wouldn't trade that for anything, but it's balancing. It's how do we ensure that our kids, and if you did too-
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (21:18):
I did.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (21:18):
... I know you know how hard this is.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (21:19):
Yeah.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (21:19):
So I'm thinking about our working parents right now, and families where they both work, and I know that it's not easy. How do we find a way to show our own kids that we belong as we're choosing daycares or after-school care? What does that look like? And are there good enough ones that are out there today that are teaching children these social skills that care about teaching empathy and kindness and all of those things? So how are we letting kids or ensuring kids is a better way to say that, feel seen and that they belong.
(21:52):
And those are the issues. There are lots that could go on all day, probably about these kinds of things, but I think we as a society need to pay attention. Are we creating safe communities after school? Are our playgrounds safe places for kids to play and parents to interact? What does that look like?
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (22:10):
What kinds of solutions would you like to see brought to bear? I know it sounds like more playgrounds, more safe playgrounds, more sports participation, more club participation. What else do you think would help kids in particular with the chronic loneliness issue?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (22:24):
Oh, I think there's so many things. I think as an example, our teachers need to be better equipped, and this is not meaning they're not doing a great job. They are.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (22:32):
They are.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (22:32):
Okay? They are. And we don't compensate them enough, and we don't give them enough credit. And that's a story for another day between you and me, but I feel very strongly about that. But I do think that it is vital. And one of the things that this project I'm working on is going to be doing is providing toolkits for all kinds of different professionals as an example to help them. How do teachers identify children at risk or who already are lonely? What can they do in the classroom to create spaces of belonging to help folks develop those social muscles so that they understand how to support one another and how to ask for help when they need it?
(23:11):
Are they given the tools and the language to say, "This is how I feel today, and I need you." Are we creating spaces that kids can comfortably go to ask for more social environment? All of those things. So I think teachers is one place, or schools I should say, not the individual teachers, but schools committed to creating cultures of connection in addition to and building all the social skills that are necessary. And again, please know, I know lots of schools are doing this and there's always room for doing things even better, I think, and for incorporating the lessons that we learn from research as we go.
(23:49):
I think another place, another really important place we have an opportunity is our physicians. Our physicians who see these wee ones as they come in their offices, are they asking the questions? Are they saying, "How are you feeling at school? You have enough friends?" Whatever it is they need to ask to get at this. Again, emotional stability and emotional support are every bit as important as our physical needs, if not more so, because our emotional support also guides so much of our physical needs. So being aware, asking the questions, creating a, this is a normal situation for us, we're going to ask about this. I think is another place we could insert some additional help and more early, I'm going to say diagnosis, for lack of a better term, more early awareness maybe I want to say of this whole situation.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (24:39):
Lucy, I'm curious, why did you decide to pursue this project?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (24:45):
Because I was lonely.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (24:47):
Yeah, really?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (24:48):
Yeah, I was. It may come as a surprise to you. I probably don't seem to be.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (24:52):
You see very outgoing and very...
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (24:53):
Exactly. And there are millions of us, just like me, a little army of people who know, as Brene Brown would say, how to get up in the morning and put the armor on.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (25:01):
Yes.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (25:01):
Know what I mean?
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (25:02):
That is true.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (25:03):
There are lots of us out there. We're not bots. We're real people who have real feelings just like everybody else. But I traveled, just so you know, and the reason, of course, I was lonely, I can share that. I traveled for 20 years, six days a week, alone. I am the proud owner of the incredibly dumb in some respects, so I'm not bragging about this, but I have five million air flight miles-
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (25:26):
Oh, wow.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (25:26):
And eight million hotel points as an example.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (25:29):
Okay.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (25:29):
It's lots of nights on the road alone with no input from others. And so I knew what the impact was. I felt it very much myself. And I started doing research, and I realized I wasn't alone, that lots and lots of people felt exactly like I do. And I became passionate to do something about that for others and to help other people be able to identify this as early as possible, prevent it if we can, by really calling the whole country as a call to action to say, "What can we do together? How can we understand and catalyze and convene ourselves to really deal with this silent epidemic of loneliness?" So that's what I'm doing. One step at a time.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (26:14):
One step at a time.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (26:15):
Yeah.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (26:15):
Where do you imagine this project being in three years, five years, 10 years?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (26:21):
Well, it's one person at a time right now, is the way I see this, you know what I mean? And each day, if someone feels better because of this is a win in that way. But where I see this, if I think about vision, okay, where I see this is something different in our country and hopefully in the world, where people are paying more attention, not just reading the articles, because there are a lot of articles out there now about only this.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (26:45):
We've acknowledged this is an issue.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (26:47):
Yeah. I think we've acknowledged that, but what are we doing about it? Are our schools doing something different? Are our physicians asking that on a routine basis? Do we have more playgrounds that are safe? Have we come together in a unified way to create a culture of connection? Are we intentionally paying attention to this now as a society and doing something about it together? So we'll be convening folks from nonprofits, folks from corporations, teachers, the folks who design city planners, who design how cities are designed architects, all of those folks in a call to action kind of way to help all of us begin to work together, to create this nationwide community that is not just talking about it, but doing something about it. And that's how I hope to measure this. Do we actually see a difference in how we create our systems, how we are supporting one another? And, hopefully at that point, we'll also be able to see the loneliness scores on the validated instruments begin to go down, and people talk more about being fulfilled than they do about being lonely. Yeah,
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (27:59):
People listening today inspired to be part of this, where do they go? How do they get ahold of you?
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (28:03):
They can find me on our website, the costofloneliness.org. And I would love to connect with anyone who'd like to be a part of this. We all have a role to play in our families, with our friends, in our society, in our corporations, wherever that is. And it is free, again, the best preventive medicine we could ever get.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (28:22):
We'll put that link in the show notes-
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (28:25):
That'd be lovely.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (28:25):
And I can't thank you enough. You are a dynamo. I think that's how I started.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (28:28):
Thank you for having me.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer (28:29):
Lucy Rose, founder and president of the Cost of Loneliness Project. Thank you so much for being here. This has been so enlightening, inspiring.
Lucy Rose, Founder, The Cost of Loneliness Project (28:35):
It has been a pleasure. Thank you so very much.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Lucy Rose is the founder and president of “The Cost of Loneliness Project,” which aims to create a national imperative to spark commitment to, and investment in, combating the emotional, physical, and economic consequences of the loneliness epidemic.
MUSIC:
Well Beyond Medicine
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Our interview with Lucy Rose was recorded in October 2025 at HLTH in Las Vegas, and is part of a series of podcast episodes recorded at that time featuring healthcare leaders from across various sectors speaking to the work they’re doing that positively impacts children’s health. Still more of those interviews and episodes to come right here on the Nemours Well Beyond Medicine Podcast. Check out this series and all of our podcast episodes via your favorite podcast app and smart speaker, the Nemours YouTube Channel, and on our website: nemourswellbeyond.org. Visit there to leave a podcast episode idea, a review, or subscribe to the podcast and our monthly e-newsletter. That address again is nemourswellbeyond.org.
Our production team for this episode includes Susan Masucci, Lauren Teta, Cheryl Munn, and Alex Wall. Video production by Sebastian Reilly and Britt Moore. Audio production by yours truly. On-site production assistance provided by Robbie Dorius and his team from HLTH. Thank you to them.
I’m Carol Vassar. Thank you for listening. Join us next time as we hear about a cross-cultural children’s health collaboration that took the Nemours Ginsburg Institute Scholars for an eye-opening trip to Uganda. Don’t miss it! Until then, remember, we can change children’s health for good, well beyond medicine.
MUSIC:
Well Beyond Medic
